Re-examination by the military prosecutor
Q: When you were arrested, when were you beaten?
Witness: In the jeep.
Q: When you were taken to the jeep did anybody go with you?
Witness: No.
Q.: Not even your father?
Witness: No. The officer didn't let him.
Q.: Just up to the jeep, not inside?
Witness: No.
Q.: Did they talk to you before they arrested you?
Witness: Yes.
Q: Do you remember what they said?
Witness: No.
Q. You said during the defense attorney's question that Meni started to curse you and yell at you while he was talking to you. Why, when you were telling me at your own initiative to my questions about Meni, didn't you say he did those things to you?
Witness: Because you didn't give me a chance. Because you were talking.
Q.: No further questions.
The Court asks: What happened inside with Meni?
Witness: When I went in he started saying he had two methods. The first is the people method and the second is the ass method. He asked me the first time and I answered that I don't know. He asked me about the people and I said I don't know them.
He started cursing and he said "go straight with me." He made signs with his hand that he wants to hit me so I said yes, I know them. After he finished the questions he told me you are going to the second interrogator and you are going to say the same thing and if you do not say the same thing something bad is going to happen to you.
Then he took me to the second interrogator, but I want to add that when I was at Meni's he told me a lot of things and showed me things I had to sign, he had a pen and he was writing. He asked me about a lot of people, he said that I know them and told me that I throw fire bottles. After he finished the questioning and got what he wanted to get from me I signed a paper he prepared in front of me and he took me to the other interrogator.
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Prosecution witness no. 4 on the witness list (M.A.)
Military prosecutor: I declare that everything the witness says will not be used against him in his own trial and that no benefit was promised him in exchange for his testimony.
Witness: I want to say something before testifying. They took me for interrogation at 8 AM. My father was not present during my interrogation. It was early in the morning and I was really tired. I was scared and then the interrogator told me that A.B. told him this and that about me.
I started to tell the interrogator that I don't know him and he started to threaten me, he used foul language, he chained me next to the window, there was a dog there and he said he was going to release the dog if I didn't testify and I started crying and then I started to say all kinds of things about A. and it was out of fear.
The interrogator started to threaten me. He said he wanted to hit me and that he was going to take me to jail and release the dog. There was nobody with me, neither my father nor my lawyer and I was scared and started crying, that is the whole truth.
Primary examination by military prosecutor Maj. Shahar Erez
Q: What were you arrested for?
Witness: They took me from my house and said that I threw stones and fire bottles.
Q: Who is B.?
Witness: My brother.
Q: Was he present at the beginning of the interrogation?
Witness: He had just come into the investigation room when they told him to get out.
Q: Did the interrogator talk to him?
Witness: I asked because I was scared to sit with my brother in the interrogation and then he told me you can't and they took him out of the interrogation room.
Q: Did you talk to your brother before the interrogation began?
Witness: No, I didn't. They did not let me talk to him.
Q: Did the interrogator talk to him?
Witness: No. My brother started to ask what do you want from my brother, they said they wanted to ask me questions and then they took him out of the room.
Q: You said before there was an interrogator who threatened you. Who is that interrogator?
Witness: His name was Meni. There were two interrogators. One was good and the other wasn't good. The first one who was not good kept threatening me. He scared me and threatened me. And then he said come with me and he took me to the good interrogator.
Q: Do you want to say anything else?
Witness: I didn't do anything.
The military prosecutor moves to declare the witness a hostile witness. The witness contradicts his statements to the police materially, says he did not do anything and in his statement he admits to committing the crime.
Defense lawyer: Objection. I did not see anywhere that the witness contradicted his statement to the police.
Court: The witness denies his police statement and therefore is declared a hostile witness.
Q: I present you with a statement taken at the police on November 4, 2011 with your personal information appearing at the top and I ask you is this your signature?
Witness: Yes. That is my signature.
Q: At the very outset of the interrogation it says that you consulted with your brother before the interrogation began. What do you have to say about that?
Witness: No, the interrogator did not let me consult with my brother. He just gave my brother a glass of water to give me. And then when he saw I was crying he gave me juice.
Q: In the very first lines of the interrogation you said that you threw stones at military vehicles. Is that true?
Witness: Yes. And I want to tell the truth now to Your Honor. Now I am going to tell only the truth. I signed that signature after the interrogator said to me: "Your parents are waiting downstairs. They're waiting for you in a taxi. Sign and I will release you." I was so happy because I wanted to be released so badly so I signed. After I signed he told me I was not getting released and I was going to Ofer.
In response to the Court's question: That was the good investigator. Yes, I threw stones.
Q: Where did you throw stones?
Witness: I told you, it was in the valley where they caught me, it was just one time.
Q: Do you know the defendant's name?
Witness: Who is the defendant? No, I don't know him. The interrogator just told me his name and the interrogator told me that this defendant incriminated me.
Q: You do know his name?
Witness: The interrogator told me.
Q: What did he tell you?
Witness: The interrogator came in and told me his name is A.B. and he incriminated me.
Q: How do you know that A.B. is the defendant?
Witness: I saw him in jail.
………….
Q: So if you are so scared then why during your interrogation did you answer after they told you that you were incriminated that you were not there and they are lying and that you were going to tell the truth in court, doesn't that contradict what you have said so far? How does that square with what you said about being afraid of the interrogator?
Witness: I said that the whole time I was scared and that the whole time they were threatening me, the whole time I told the interrogator that I do not know them and he told me it is cold outside and that I should tell the truth and he would release me, and that if I didn't tell the truth he was going to put me in isolation and I would get beaten up there, he kept mentioning the names to me and he said they incriminated you.
Q: Later the interrogator also asked you whether you were in a conflict with any of the people who incriminated you and you said: "No, I am their friend and they decided to incriminate me." What do you say about that?
Witness: Which interrogator did I say that to?
Q: As far as I know the second interrogator.
Witness: I told you. The first interrogator was so tough with me and then when I went to the second interrogator he treated me nicely.
Q: So I don't understand. Who wrote down what you signed? The first interrogator or the second one?
Witness: The first interrogator. They took me to the second interrogator so that I would sign and get released. I remember that it was next to the stairs and there I saw my brother and the interrogator told my brother to wait a few minutes because I was about to be released with my brother. And the interrogator said that if I wanted to get released with my brother I had to sign. After I signed they told me I was not going home but to Ofer.
Q: So the second interrogator did not ask any question but just gave you the paper to sign?
Witness: Yes.
Q: All the statements you gave, you incriminate a lot of people, including yourself. Did you not say these things to the interrogator?
Witness: No.
Q: So you are actually saying that the interrogator is guilty without you telling him?[??]
[b]Witness:[/b] Half of the things that were there were ready, he had them with him.
Q: How do you know which things he had?
Witness: No, I don't know how to read Hebrew. He was typing on the computer and he kept on saying I was going to be released and he said "come on, don't you want to confess so that you can go home?"
Q: So how do you know it was all written down already if you don't know how to read Hebrew?
Witness: Because these were things I did not say.
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Cross-examination by defense attorney
Q: Do you remember your date of birth:
Witness: May 31, 1996.
Q: What time were you arrested from your home?
Witness: 3 AM.
Q: Where did they take you?
Witness: Ma'ale Adumim.
Q: What did you do on the evening of your arrest?
Witness: I slept at my grandmother's.
Q: How did you know you were at the Ma'ale Adumim station?
Witness: I live in Azariya and it is near Ma'ale Adumim.
Q: Who arrested you?
Witness: I don't know, it was an officer with 40 soldiers.
Q: Was it the army or the border police?
Witness: The army.
Q: Was there police?
Witness: No.
Q: Were there people with them in civilian clothes?
Witness: No, they were all army with green uniforms.
Q: How old is your brother B.?
Witness: 21.
Q: When did he come to the police station?
Witness: I don't know.
Q: Do you have any idea who asked him to come?
Witness: No, I only found my brother. The officer who arrested me at home asked someone from my family to come and my brother came.
Q: Where did they put you after your arrest? Describe the way from home to the detention center.
Witness: I usually sleep at my grandmother's. She lives alone and I sleep over. They came and started knocking on the door. My grandmother is old and couldn't hear them and then they broke the door. They brought my brother with them and then the officer woke me up and then the officer told me "M., we're going to take you for five minutes to Ma'ale Adumim and then we are going to bring you back." Then they took me to Ma'ale Adumim and then they brought me into the police who were in uniform like the wardens and then they brought me the interrogator and took me into an investigation cell and there he started asking me questions and scaring me.
Q: How did they take you there?
Witness: In jeeps.
Q: Did they threaten you during the ride?
Witness: While I was in the jeep they started to hit me. They kept telling me to say that I threw stones. They kept hitting me and I started to cry there until I got to the investigation. There I was scared and they started asking me about the names and I started to tell.
Q: Who do you mean hit you?
Witness: I don't know their names.
Q: When they arrested you did they blindfold you?
Witness: Yes.
Q: When was that? At what stage?
Witness: The moment they put me in the jeep.
Q: When did they take off the blindfold?
Witness: During the interrogation.
Q: Did Meni question you alone or were there other people with him?
Witness: He was alone.
Q: Did he question you in Arabic?
Witness: He doesn't speak Arabic fluently, he spoke very slowly.
Q: Did Meni question you in Arabic?
Witness: No, they all questioned me in Hebrew, he only spoke a little Arabic.
Q: Did you have a chance to talk to your brother B.?
Witness: I asked my brother to come sit with me because I was scared and then the other interrogator asked him to look at me but said he was not allowed to talk to me.
Q: So you and your brother didn't talk?
Witness: No.
Q: Did the other investigator tell you you had the right to remain silent?
Witness: No, he didn't say anything to me. He asked me to answer all the questions they were going to ask me. That was the first interrogator and then they took me to the second interrogator. He let me sit down in a chair and told me don't cry and don't be afraid, now you are going to see your brother. Then he opened the door and said here is your brother. I asked my brother to sit with me because I was scared and then the interrogator said he was not allowed to sit and that when we finished the interrogation I would go free.
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Investigation of witness First Sgt. Binyamin Baruchi (no. 1 on the witness list)
Primary examination by military prosecutor Capt. Ella Sirotinsky
Q: Tell the court what your job is.
Witness: I am a youth interrogator at the Ma'ale Adumim station.
Q: How good is your command of the Arabic language?
Witness: I understand it and speak it.
Q: I present you with the statement of A.B. from October 27, 2010. Who collected this statement?
Witness: I did.
Q: Please tell us about the circumstances of collecting the statement.
Witness: As far as I remember and going by the hour it was a night shift that I did and he was brought to me for interrogation after being arrested.
Q: What language was the interrogation conducted in?
Witness: I think in the Arabic language but there is a disk of the interrogation and it can be checked.
Q: Were there any exceptional circumstances during the interrogation?
Witness: Not that I can remember.
To the Court's question, I remember the interrogation only vaguely. If there were anything exceptional I would have probably written it down.
Q: I present you with a disk of the interrogation of A.B. Please tell us who recorded this disk.
Witness: I recorded the interrogation. The details of the place and the suspect are here.
Q: I present you with a memo from October 27, 2010. Who wrote the memo?
Witness: I wrote the memo on the night of the interrogation.
Military prosecutor: No further questions. I would like to submit the material of which the policeman testified.
Cross-examination by defense attorney
Q: How long have you been an interrogator?
Witness: About eight years.
Q: How long have you been in Ma'ale Adumim?
Witness: 7-8 years.
Q: Do you have detention cells in the Ma'ale Adumim station?
Witness: Yes.
Q: When you interrogate minors which law do you go by?
Witness: There is a new Youth Law, everybody knows that. There are directives of the Judea and Samaria legal advisor for Palestinian minors and that is what we go by.
Q: So that you work according to two laws, one law for Palestinian minors and another law for Israeli minors? Is that true?
Witness: You're not asking the right person those questions. There is an Israeli law that applies to minors in general and in the territories there are directives of the legal advisor about interrogating minors in the territories because of the complexity.
Q: If I understood you correctly, you are saying that according to the legal advisor's directives you are allowed to interrogate a minor at 2:30 AM?
Witness: That is what I understand.
Q: Do you have the directives in writing?
Witness: It is given to us in general, I don't have it in writing.
Q: Let's say the interrogee were Israeli. Would you be interrogating him at 2:30 AM?
Witness: If necessary then yes.
Q: According to the law in Israel are you allowed to interrogate a minor at 2:30 AM?
Witness: Under certain circumstances yes.
Q: What do you mean by certain circumstances?
Witness: It depends on the age, for example.
Q: An Israeli boy of, say 15, would you interrogate him at 2:30 AM?
Witness: yes.
Q: But the law forbids you to interrogate an Israeli boy of 15 at 2:30 AM.
Witness: Apparently we interpret the law differently. I have interrogated Israeli boys at those hours too.
Q: According to what law do you work in Israel when you interrogate youth?
Witness: The new Youth Law.
Q: The new Youth Law forbids the interrogation of minors after 10 PM.
Witness: No it doesn't, there are circumstances when you can.
Q: In our case, what circumstances?
Witness: a. You inform the investigations officer and ask for his permission. b. You to try to summon the parents. c. You give the suspect the opportunity to consult with his parents and with a lawyer.
Q: Did you consult your officer who approved this investigation?
Witness: Of course.
Q: Did he give you the approval before the detainee was arrested or the next day?
Witness: I got the approval by phone before the interrogation.
Q: Do you mean around 2 AM?
Witness: I don't remember.
Q: In the interrogation room were you alone or were there others with you?
Witness: In the interrogation it doesn't say anything else but it is all recorded.
Q: In the interrogation it says you used an interpreter and did not interrogate him in Arabic.
Witness: I told you I don't remember and that's what the recording is for.
Q: Do you remember who helped you interpret?
Witness: Not at all.
Q: Could intelligence officer Meni have helped you interpret?
Witness: Possibly.
Q: What do you mean by an ass investigation over in Ma'ale Adumim?
Witness: I am not familiar with the phrase.
Q: Are you familiar with a people's investigation
Witness: These questions do not make any sense. What are you aiming at?
Q: Did you warn the defendant during the interrogation?
Witness: Apparently.
Q: What's apparently?
Witness: We do it automatically.
Q: How did you warn him, in Arabic?
Witness: I can't.
Q: Then how did you warn the defendant?
Witness: Look at the disk. That's what the disk is for.
Q: In the recording I did not hear a single word of warning. What do you say?
Witness: I think you are wrong.
Q: I want you now, since you said you know Arabic, to translate the warning for us from Hebrew into Arabic.
Witness: I told you I don't know how to translate the warning.
Q: But don't you see you are contradicting yourself? On the one hand you say you gave the warning and on the other hand you say you don't know how to say the warning?
Witness: Then there really must have been somebody with me.
Q: Did you tell him he had the right to consult a lawyer?
Witness: Definitely.
Q: Were you aware of the fact that at 2:30 AM it is very hard to find a lawyer to consult with?
Witness: What's the question?
Q: How could you tell him at 2 AM you have the right to consult a lawyer?
Witness: I tell him and he has the right to consult.
Q: At the end of the interrogation did you read him the testimony?
Witness: No, I read him while I wrote down the testimony. Everything I write down I read.
Q: Can you translate to us how you say fire bottle in Arabic?
Witness: A fire bottle is Molotov.
Q: Do you know any other word for that?
Witness: No.
Defense lawyer: No further questions.
Primary examination by military prosecutor of Witness for the prosecution First Sgt. Avi Tivoni (no. 4)
Q: Tell the court what your job is.
Witness: I have been an Israel Police investigator for about 12 years. I've been with the police for a total of 16 years. I serve at the Ma'ale Adumim station.
Q: Tell us about your command of the Arabic language.
Witness: I speak Arabic, I understand Arabic and I use the language as part of my job as an investigator for the Israel Police.
Q: I present you with the statement of interrogee M.A. from November 4, 2010. Please tell us who collected this statement.
Witness: It is a statement that I collected at 4:31 AM. It is the interrogation of M.A.
Q: What language did the interrogation take place in?
Witness: The interrogation took place in the Arabic language and was typed in the Hebrew language. To the Court's question, I more or less remember the interrogation.
Q: M.A. testified on the witness stand that during the interrogation you threatened him, you used inappropriate phrases, what do you have to say to that?
Witness: There was no such thing. It was a frontal interrogation. Questions and answers, no threats and no use of foul language.
Q: M. also claims that he was chained to the window and there was a dog there and you threatened him you would release the dog on him if he didn't confess. And then he started to tell things out of fear.
Witness: There was no such thing. There are no dogs at police stations, it is not allowed. I did not chain him to the window and that is not the way I work. Even though he is an interrogee he has honor and he has rights and is first of all a human being.
Q: The interrogee claims that his brother was not allowed into the interrogation room to talk to him. What do you have to say about that?
Witness: Before the beginning of the interrogation it was stressed to me by the investigations officer, Cmdr. Shai Dacosta, the youth officer at the station, an emphasis on a meeting between the interrogator and a family member so that he could consult them before the interrogation and that is what we did. He met his brother B., I let him sit down, talk to him, consult, I explained him his rights, so that allegation is false, his brother can also testify about it.
Q: The interrogee also claims that you told him that his parents were waiting for him downstairs and that all he needed to do was to sign and then you would free him.
Witness: There was no such thing, that is not the way I work. As I said, it was a frontal interrogation with a minor with an emphasis on minor. I did not speak in that way and I did not say any such thing, to the contrary. Fair treatment, a question and answer investigation.
Q: The interrogee claims that you told him the names of the people who incriminated him and then you scared him and threatened to hit him.
Witness: There was no such thing. That is not the way I investigate, I do not threaten. Everything he said I wrote in the testimony the way he said it, without threats and without intimidation. That does no good.
Q: The interrogee claims that you threatened to put him in a cell with soldiers and tell them to hit him.
Witness: There was no such thing.
Q: He claims that you asked him to incriminate his friends and then he could go free.
Witness: There was no such thing. It was a frontal investigation, questions and answers.
Q: Did he complain to you of any violence against him during his arrest or in general? Violence or threats?
Witness: That is the kind of thing an interrogee usually brings up, from my experience. I am very strict and careful to write everything in the investigation report. If such things happen I make sure to separate the material for the Police Investigation Unit or the Military Police Criminal Investigation Division, the body that handles soldiers or anyone who behaves unethically, if he had said any such thing it would have been written in the testimony and been passed on to those parties.
Q: The interrogee claimed here throughout his testimony that you did not actually ask him any question but just gave him the form to sign.
Witness: There was no such thing. As I said, the investigation process began with him consulting his brother B. and after his brother was exposed to the suspicions against him he advised him what to do. They had the possibility of consulting a lawyer despite the inconvenient hour. The interrogation was frontal, and since it was recorded in the Hebrew language it was also documented visually. At the end of the interrogation I brought him the document to sign. He could have said if he had any reservations about the interrogation.
Q: Do you know why the interrogation took place at night?
Witness: Usually, arrests of fire bottle and stone throwers or perpetrators of security offenses are planned for the night hours to prevent unrest, gatherings and confrontations with the public in the Arab villages in our sector. I assume that for the same reasons he was arrested at night and I interrogated him after his arrest.
Q: The interrogee claims that you did not inform him of his right to remain silent. Is that true?
Witness: At the beginning of the interrogation in the presence of his brother I explained him his rights to consult his brother or a lawyer as well as the right to remain silent, which could be used against him to support the evidence against him. He could have remained silent and the proof is that he spoke, he was asked, he answered and his testimony was recorded and he signed it.
Q: I present you with the statement of interrogee Y.A. from November 4, 2010. Tell me about the circumstances of collecting this statement.
Witness: It is an interrogation of a suspect also of throwing fire bottles at military vehicles and soldiers in Azariya, an interrogation that took place at 3:17 AM on that date. The interrogation took place in the Arabic language and was documented in the Hebrew language. A frontal interrogation at the end of which the suspect signed it. I should add that this suspect was given the opportunity to consult his father before the interrogation and his rights were explained to him before the interrogation began.
Q: How was the interrogation documented?
Witness: Since it was documented in the Hebrew language and conducted in the Arabic language, we made a visual recording to the best of my memory.
Q: I present you with the disk, please tell me who made this disk?
Witness: It is a recording of the interrogation, a system of visual documentation that can be burned right after the interrogation, and this is the disk.
Q: The interrogee claimed on the witness stand that during the interrogation you pressured him and threatened to hit him and then he was forced to confess.
Witness: In this case as well there was a frontal interrogation in the Arabic language, documented in the Hebrew language, as far as I remember photographed visually. I did not threaten, I did not intimidate, that is the way I work. An interrogation is not a pleasant experience but I do not intimidate and I do not threaten.
Q: The interrogee says that he signed a paper which he did not know what it said. What do you have to say about that?
Witness: As I said, the interrogation was recorded visually and documented in the Hebrew language. I assume that if he does not know how to read Hebrew than he does not really understand what it says on the page but he was a witness to the interrogation, he was present in it and he signed his testimony at the end of the interrogation.
Q: The interrogee claimed that you are the one who added names of other people into his statement and he did not say them.
Witness: The interrogee gave his statement and it was documented, he is the one who gave their names, he is the one who gave the details, and I documented them in the body of the investigation.
Q: The interrogee claims that he signed because you intimidated him and wanted to hit him.
Witness: There was no such thing. The suspect was interrogated, he gave information and signed without being threatened or intimidated.
Military prosecutor: No further questions. I would like to submit the statements and the disk.
Q: When you were arrested, when were you beaten?
Witness: In the jeep.
Q: When you were taken to the jeep did anybody go with you?
Witness: No.
Q.: Not even your father?
Witness: No. The officer didn't let him.
Q.: Just up to the jeep, not inside?
Witness: No.
Q.: Did they talk to you before they arrested you?
Witness: Yes.
Q: Do you remember what they said?
Witness: No.
Q. You said during the defense attorney's question that Meni started to curse you and yell at you while he was talking to you. Why, when you were telling me at your own initiative to my questions about Meni, didn't you say he did those things to you?
Witness: Because you didn't give me a chance. Because you were talking.
Q.: No further questions.
The Court asks: What happened inside with Meni?
Witness: When I went in he started saying he had two methods. The first is the people method and the second is the ass method. He asked me the first time and I answered that I don't know. He asked me about the people and I said I don't know them.
He started cursing and he said "go straight with me." He made signs with his hand that he wants to hit me so I said yes, I know them. After he finished the questions he told me you are going to the second interrogator and you are going to say the same thing and if you do not say the same thing something bad is going to happen to you.
Then he took me to the second interrogator, but I want to add that when I was at Meni's he told me a lot of things and showed me things I had to sign, he had a pen and he was writing. He asked me about a lot of people, he said that I know them and told me that I throw fire bottles. After he finished the questioning and got what he wanted to get from me I signed a paper he prepared in front of me and he took me to the other interrogator.
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Prosecution witness no. 4 on the witness list (M.A.)
Military prosecutor: I declare that everything the witness says will not be used against him in his own trial and that no benefit was promised him in exchange for his testimony.
Witness: I want to say something before testifying. They took me for interrogation at 8 AM. My father was not present during my interrogation. It was early in the morning and I was really tired. I was scared and then the interrogator told me that A.B. told him this and that about me.
I started to tell the interrogator that I don't know him and he started to threaten me, he used foul language, he chained me next to the window, there was a dog there and he said he was going to release the dog if I didn't testify and I started crying and then I started to say all kinds of things about A. and it was out of fear.
The interrogator started to threaten me. He said he wanted to hit me and that he was going to take me to jail and release the dog. There was nobody with me, neither my father nor my lawyer and I was scared and started crying, that is the whole truth.
Primary examination by military prosecutor Maj. Shahar Erez
Q: What were you arrested for?
Witness: They took me from my house and said that I threw stones and fire bottles.
Q: Who is B.?
Witness: My brother.
Q: Was he present at the beginning of the interrogation?
Witness: He had just come into the investigation room when they told him to get out.
Q: Did the interrogator talk to him?
Witness: I asked because I was scared to sit with my brother in the interrogation and then he told me you can't and they took him out of the interrogation room.
Q: Did you talk to your brother before the interrogation began?
Witness: No, I didn't. They did not let me talk to him.
Q: Did the interrogator talk to him?
Witness: No. My brother started to ask what do you want from my brother, they said they wanted to ask me questions and then they took him out of the room.
Q: You said before there was an interrogator who threatened you. Who is that interrogator?
Witness: His name was Meni. There were two interrogators. One was good and the other wasn't good. The first one who was not good kept threatening me. He scared me and threatened me. And then he said come with me and he took me to the good interrogator.
Q: Do you want to say anything else?
Witness: I didn't do anything.
The military prosecutor moves to declare the witness a hostile witness. The witness contradicts his statements to the police materially, says he did not do anything and in his statement he admits to committing the crime.
Defense lawyer: Objection. I did not see anywhere that the witness contradicted his statement to the police.
Court: The witness denies his police statement and therefore is declared a hostile witness.
Q: I present you with a statement taken at the police on November 4, 2011 with your personal information appearing at the top and I ask you is this your signature?
Witness: Yes. That is my signature.
Q: At the very outset of the interrogation it says that you consulted with your brother before the interrogation began. What do you have to say about that?
Witness: No, the interrogator did not let me consult with my brother. He just gave my brother a glass of water to give me. And then when he saw I was crying he gave me juice.
Q: In the very first lines of the interrogation you said that you threw stones at military vehicles. Is that true?
Witness: Yes. And I want to tell the truth now to Your Honor. Now I am going to tell only the truth. I signed that signature after the interrogator said to me: "Your parents are waiting downstairs. They're waiting for you in a taxi. Sign and I will release you." I was so happy because I wanted to be released so badly so I signed. After I signed he told me I was not getting released and I was going to Ofer.
In response to the Court's question: That was the good investigator. Yes, I threw stones.
Q: Where did you throw stones?
Witness: I told you, it was in the valley where they caught me, it was just one time.
Q: Do you know the defendant's name?
Witness: Who is the defendant? No, I don't know him. The interrogator just told me his name and the interrogator told me that this defendant incriminated me.
Q: You do know his name?
Witness: The interrogator told me.
Q: What did he tell you?
Witness: The interrogator came in and told me his name is A.B. and he incriminated me.
Q: How do you know that A.B. is the defendant?
Witness: I saw him in jail.
………….
Q: So if you are so scared then why during your interrogation did you answer after they told you that you were incriminated that you were not there and they are lying and that you were going to tell the truth in court, doesn't that contradict what you have said so far? How does that square with what you said about being afraid of the interrogator?
Witness: I said that the whole time I was scared and that the whole time they were threatening me, the whole time I told the interrogator that I do not know them and he told me it is cold outside and that I should tell the truth and he would release me, and that if I didn't tell the truth he was going to put me in isolation and I would get beaten up there, he kept mentioning the names to me and he said they incriminated you.
Q: Later the interrogator also asked you whether you were in a conflict with any of the people who incriminated you and you said: "No, I am their friend and they decided to incriminate me." What do you say about that?
Witness: Which interrogator did I say that to?
Q: As far as I know the second interrogator.
Witness: I told you. The first interrogator was so tough with me and then when I went to the second interrogator he treated me nicely.
Q: So I don't understand. Who wrote down what you signed? The first interrogator or the second one?
Witness: The first interrogator. They took me to the second interrogator so that I would sign and get released. I remember that it was next to the stairs and there I saw my brother and the interrogator told my brother to wait a few minutes because I was about to be released with my brother. And the interrogator said that if I wanted to get released with my brother I had to sign. After I signed they told me I was not going home but to Ofer.
Q: So the second interrogator did not ask any question but just gave you the paper to sign?
Witness: Yes.
Q: All the statements you gave, you incriminate a lot of people, including yourself. Did you not say these things to the interrogator?
Witness: No.
Q: So you are actually saying that the interrogator is guilty without you telling him?[??]
[b]Witness:[/b] Half of the things that were there were ready, he had them with him.
Q: How do you know which things he had?
Witness: No, I don't know how to read Hebrew. He was typing on the computer and he kept on saying I was going to be released and he said "come on, don't you want to confess so that you can go home?"
Q: So how do you know it was all written down already if you don't know how to read Hebrew?
Witness: Because these were things I did not say.
…………….
Cross-examination by defense attorney
Q: Do you remember your date of birth:
Witness: May 31, 1996.
Q: What time were you arrested from your home?
Witness: 3 AM.
Q: Where did they take you?
Witness: Ma'ale Adumim.
Q: What did you do on the evening of your arrest?
Witness: I slept at my grandmother's.
Q: How did you know you were at the Ma'ale Adumim station?
Witness: I live in Azariya and it is near Ma'ale Adumim.
Q: Who arrested you?
Witness: I don't know, it was an officer with 40 soldiers.
Q: Was it the army or the border police?
Witness: The army.
Q: Was there police?
Witness: No.
Q: Were there people with them in civilian clothes?
Witness: No, they were all army with green uniforms.
Q: How old is your brother B.?
Witness: 21.
Q: When did he come to the police station?
Witness: I don't know.
Q: Do you have any idea who asked him to come?
Witness: No, I only found my brother. The officer who arrested me at home asked someone from my family to come and my brother came.
Q: Where did they put you after your arrest? Describe the way from home to the detention center.
Witness: I usually sleep at my grandmother's. She lives alone and I sleep over. They came and started knocking on the door. My grandmother is old and couldn't hear them and then they broke the door. They brought my brother with them and then the officer woke me up and then the officer told me "M., we're going to take you for five minutes to Ma'ale Adumim and then we are going to bring you back." Then they took me to Ma'ale Adumim and then they brought me into the police who were in uniform like the wardens and then they brought me the interrogator and took me into an investigation cell and there he started asking me questions and scaring me.
Q: How did they take you there?
Witness: In jeeps.
Q: Did they threaten you during the ride?
Witness: While I was in the jeep they started to hit me. They kept telling me to say that I threw stones. They kept hitting me and I started to cry there until I got to the investigation. There I was scared and they started asking me about the names and I started to tell.
Q: Who do you mean hit you?
Witness: I don't know their names.
Q: When they arrested you did they blindfold you?
Witness: Yes.
Q: When was that? At what stage?
Witness: The moment they put me in the jeep.
Q: When did they take off the blindfold?
Witness: During the interrogation.
Q: Did Meni question you alone or were there other people with him?
Witness: He was alone.
Q: Did he question you in Arabic?
Witness: He doesn't speak Arabic fluently, he spoke very slowly.
Q: Did Meni question you in Arabic?
Witness: No, they all questioned me in Hebrew, he only spoke a little Arabic.
Q: Did you have a chance to talk to your brother B.?
Witness: I asked my brother to come sit with me because I was scared and then the other interrogator asked him to look at me but said he was not allowed to talk to me.
Q: So you and your brother didn't talk?
Witness: No.
Q: Did the other investigator tell you you had the right to remain silent?
Witness: No, he didn't say anything to me. He asked me to answer all the questions they were going to ask me. That was the first interrogator and then they took me to the second interrogator. He let me sit down in a chair and told me don't cry and don't be afraid, now you are going to see your brother. Then he opened the door and said here is your brother. I asked my brother to sit with me because I was scared and then the interrogator said he was not allowed to sit and that when we finished the interrogation I would go free.
…………
Investigation of witness First Sgt. Binyamin Baruchi (no. 1 on the witness list)
Primary examination by military prosecutor Capt. Ella Sirotinsky
Q: Tell the court what your job is.
Witness: I am a youth interrogator at the Ma'ale Adumim station.
Q: How good is your command of the Arabic language?
Witness: I understand it and speak it.
Q: I present you with the statement of A.B. from October 27, 2010. Who collected this statement?
Witness: I did.
Q: Please tell us about the circumstances of collecting the statement.
Witness: As far as I remember and going by the hour it was a night shift that I did and he was brought to me for interrogation after being arrested.
Q: What language was the interrogation conducted in?
Witness: I think in the Arabic language but there is a disk of the interrogation and it can be checked.
Q: Were there any exceptional circumstances during the interrogation?
Witness: Not that I can remember.
To the Court's question, I remember the interrogation only vaguely. If there were anything exceptional I would have probably written it down.
Q: I present you with a disk of the interrogation of A.B. Please tell us who recorded this disk.
Witness: I recorded the interrogation. The details of the place and the suspect are here.
Q: I present you with a memo from October 27, 2010. Who wrote the memo?
Witness: I wrote the memo on the night of the interrogation.
Military prosecutor: No further questions. I would like to submit the material of which the policeman testified.
Cross-examination by defense attorney
Q: How long have you been an interrogator?
Witness: About eight years.
Q: How long have you been in Ma'ale Adumim?
Witness: 7-8 years.
Q: Do you have detention cells in the Ma'ale Adumim station?
Witness: Yes.
Q: When you interrogate minors which law do you go by?
Witness: There is a new Youth Law, everybody knows that. There are directives of the Judea and Samaria legal advisor for Palestinian minors and that is what we go by.
Q: So that you work according to two laws, one law for Palestinian minors and another law for Israeli minors? Is that true?
Witness: You're not asking the right person those questions. There is an Israeli law that applies to minors in general and in the territories there are directives of the legal advisor about interrogating minors in the territories because of the complexity.
Q: If I understood you correctly, you are saying that according to the legal advisor's directives you are allowed to interrogate a minor at 2:30 AM?
Witness: That is what I understand.
Q: Do you have the directives in writing?
Witness: It is given to us in general, I don't have it in writing.
Q: Let's say the interrogee were Israeli. Would you be interrogating him at 2:30 AM?
Witness: If necessary then yes.
Q: According to the law in Israel are you allowed to interrogate a minor at 2:30 AM?
Witness: Under certain circumstances yes.
Q: What do you mean by certain circumstances?
Witness: It depends on the age, for example.
Q: An Israeli boy of, say 15, would you interrogate him at 2:30 AM?
Witness: yes.
Q: But the law forbids you to interrogate an Israeli boy of 15 at 2:30 AM.
Witness: Apparently we interpret the law differently. I have interrogated Israeli boys at those hours too.
Q: According to what law do you work in Israel when you interrogate youth?
Witness: The new Youth Law.
Q: The new Youth Law forbids the interrogation of minors after 10 PM.
Witness: No it doesn't, there are circumstances when you can.
Q: In our case, what circumstances?
Witness: a. You inform the investigations officer and ask for his permission. b. You to try to summon the parents. c. You give the suspect the opportunity to consult with his parents and with a lawyer.
Q: Did you consult your officer who approved this investigation?
Witness: Of course.
Q: Did he give you the approval before the detainee was arrested or the next day?
Witness: I got the approval by phone before the interrogation.
Q: Do you mean around 2 AM?
Witness: I don't remember.
Q: In the interrogation room were you alone or were there others with you?
Witness: In the interrogation it doesn't say anything else but it is all recorded.
Q: In the interrogation it says you used an interpreter and did not interrogate him in Arabic.
Witness: I told you I don't remember and that's what the recording is for.
Q: Do you remember who helped you interpret?
Witness: Not at all.
Q: Could intelligence officer Meni have helped you interpret?
Witness: Possibly.
Q: What do you mean by an ass investigation over in Ma'ale Adumim?
Witness: I am not familiar with the phrase.
Q: Are you familiar with a people's investigation
Witness: These questions do not make any sense. What are you aiming at?
Q: Did you warn the defendant during the interrogation?
Witness: Apparently.
Q: What's apparently?
Witness: We do it automatically.
Q: How did you warn him, in Arabic?
Witness: I can't.
Q: Then how did you warn the defendant?
Witness: Look at the disk. That's what the disk is for.
Q: In the recording I did not hear a single word of warning. What do you say?
Witness: I think you are wrong.
Q: I want you now, since you said you know Arabic, to translate the warning for us from Hebrew into Arabic.
Witness: I told you I don't know how to translate the warning.
Q: But don't you see you are contradicting yourself? On the one hand you say you gave the warning and on the other hand you say you don't know how to say the warning?
Witness: Then there really must have been somebody with me.
Q: Did you tell him he had the right to consult a lawyer?
Witness: Definitely.
Q: Were you aware of the fact that at 2:30 AM it is very hard to find a lawyer to consult with?
Witness: What's the question?
Q: How could you tell him at 2 AM you have the right to consult a lawyer?
Witness: I tell him and he has the right to consult.
Q: At the end of the interrogation did you read him the testimony?
Witness: No, I read him while I wrote down the testimony. Everything I write down I read.
Q: Can you translate to us how you say fire bottle in Arabic?
Witness: A fire bottle is Molotov.
Q: Do you know any other word for that?
Witness: No.
Defense lawyer: No further questions.
Primary examination by military prosecutor of Witness for the prosecution First Sgt. Avi Tivoni (no. 4)
Q: Tell the court what your job is.
Witness: I have been an Israel Police investigator for about 12 years. I've been with the police for a total of 16 years. I serve at the Ma'ale Adumim station.
Q: Tell us about your command of the Arabic language.
Witness: I speak Arabic, I understand Arabic and I use the language as part of my job as an investigator for the Israel Police.
Q: I present you with the statement of interrogee M.A. from November 4, 2010. Please tell us who collected this statement.
Witness: It is a statement that I collected at 4:31 AM. It is the interrogation of M.A.
Q: What language did the interrogation take place in?
Witness: The interrogation took place in the Arabic language and was typed in the Hebrew language. To the Court's question, I more or less remember the interrogation.
Q: M.A. testified on the witness stand that during the interrogation you threatened him, you used inappropriate phrases, what do you have to say to that?
Witness: There was no such thing. It was a frontal interrogation. Questions and answers, no threats and no use of foul language.
Q: M. also claims that he was chained to the window and there was a dog there and you threatened him you would release the dog on him if he didn't confess. And then he started to tell things out of fear.
Witness: There was no such thing. There are no dogs at police stations, it is not allowed. I did not chain him to the window and that is not the way I work. Even though he is an interrogee he has honor and he has rights and is first of all a human being.
Q: The interrogee claims that his brother was not allowed into the interrogation room to talk to him. What do you have to say about that?
Witness: Before the beginning of the interrogation it was stressed to me by the investigations officer, Cmdr. Shai Dacosta, the youth officer at the station, an emphasis on a meeting between the interrogator and a family member so that he could consult them before the interrogation and that is what we did. He met his brother B., I let him sit down, talk to him, consult, I explained him his rights, so that allegation is false, his brother can also testify about it.
Q: The interrogee also claims that you told him that his parents were waiting for him downstairs and that all he needed to do was to sign and then you would free him.
Witness: There was no such thing, that is not the way I work. As I said, it was a frontal interrogation with a minor with an emphasis on minor. I did not speak in that way and I did not say any such thing, to the contrary. Fair treatment, a question and answer investigation.
Q: The interrogee claims that you told him the names of the people who incriminated him and then you scared him and threatened to hit him.
Witness: There was no such thing. That is not the way I investigate, I do not threaten. Everything he said I wrote in the testimony the way he said it, without threats and without intimidation. That does no good.
Q: The interrogee claims that you threatened to put him in a cell with soldiers and tell them to hit him.
Witness: There was no such thing.
Q: He claims that you asked him to incriminate his friends and then he could go free.
Witness: There was no such thing. It was a frontal investigation, questions and answers.
Q: Did he complain to you of any violence against him during his arrest or in general? Violence or threats?
Witness: That is the kind of thing an interrogee usually brings up, from my experience. I am very strict and careful to write everything in the investigation report. If such things happen I make sure to separate the material for the Police Investigation Unit or the Military Police Criminal Investigation Division, the body that handles soldiers or anyone who behaves unethically, if he had said any such thing it would have been written in the testimony and been passed on to those parties.
Q: The interrogee claimed here throughout his testimony that you did not actually ask him any question but just gave him the form to sign.
Witness: There was no such thing. As I said, the investigation process began with him consulting his brother B. and after his brother was exposed to the suspicions against him he advised him what to do. They had the possibility of consulting a lawyer despite the inconvenient hour. The interrogation was frontal, and since it was recorded in the Hebrew language it was also documented visually. At the end of the interrogation I brought him the document to sign. He could have said if he had any reservations about the interrogation.
Q: Do you know why the interrogation took place at night?
Witness: Usually, arrests of fire bottle and stone throwers or perpetrators of security offenses are planned for the night hours to prevent unrest, gatherings and confrontations with the public in the Arab villages in our sector. I assume that for the same reasons he was arrested at night and I interrogated him after his arrest.
Q: The interrogee claims that you did not inform him of his right to remain silent. Is that true?
Witness: At the beginning of the interrogation in the presence of his brother I explained him his rights to consult his brother or a lawyer as well as the right to remain silent, which could be used against him to support the evidence against him. He could have remained silent and the proof is that he spoke, he was asked, he answered and his testimony was recorded and he signed it.
Q: I present you with the statement of interrogee Y.A. from November 4, 2010. Tell me about the circumstances of collecting this statement.
Witness: It is an interrogation of a suspect also of throwing fire bottles at military vehicles and soldiers in Azariya, an interrogation that took place at 3:17 AM on that date. The interrogation took place in the Arabic language and was documented in the Hebrew language. A frontal interrogation at the end of which the suspect signed it. I should add that this suspect was given the opportunity to consult his father before the interrogation and his rights were explained to him before the interrogation began.
Q: How was the interrogation documented?
Witness: Since it was documented in the Hebrew language and conducted in the Arabic language, we made a visual recording to the best of my memory.
Q: I present you with the disk, please tell me who made this disk?
Witness: It is a recording of the interrogation, a system of visual documentation that can be burned right after the interrogation, and this is the disk.
Q: The interrogee claimed on the witness stand that during the interrogation you pressured him and threatened to hit him and then he was forced to confess.
Witness: In this case as well there was a frontal interrogation in the Arabic language, documented in the Hebrew language, as far as I remember photographed visually. I did not threaten, I did not intimidate, that is the way I work. An interrogation is not a pleasant experience but I do not intimidate and I do not threaten.
Q: The interrogee says that he signed a paper which he did not know what it said. What do you have to say about that?
Witness: As I said, the interrogation was recorded visually and documented in the Hebrew language. I assume that if he does not know how to read Hebrew than he does not really understand what it says on the page but he was a witness to the interrogation, he was present in it and he signed his testimony at the end of the interrogation.
Q: The interrogee claimed that you are the one who added names of other people into his statement and he did not say them.
Witness: The interrogee gave his statement and it was documented, he is the one who gave their names, he is the one who gave the details, and I documented them in the body of the investigation.
Q: The interrogee claims that he signed because you intimidated him and wanted to hit him.
Witness: There was no such thing. The suspect was interrogated, he gave information and signed without being threatened or intimidated.
Military prosecutor: No further questions. I would like to submit the statements and the disk.
